1 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,510 JEREMY: Hello and welcome to another helping of anchovies with me, Jeremy Cherfas. 2 00:00:13,550 --> 00:00:21,440 This episode is sort of an extension of the one before, though you don't need to have heard that one to enjoy this one, and actually you 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,660 can listen to them in any order. 4 00:00:23,660 --> 00:00:26,390 I think each extends the other. 5 00:00:27,740 --> 00:00:37,730 Last time Marcela Garcés explained how the anchovy is an essential element in Basque and Spanish cuisine, and the Spanish really 6 00:00:37,730 --> 00:00:44,900 should know; they eat more anchovies than anyone else, 2.69kg per person per year. 7 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:46,970 That's more than a tin a week. 8 00:00:47,060 --> 00:00:56,840 I got that figure from a new book called A twist in the tail, subtitled How the Humble Anchovy Flavoured Western Cuisine. 9 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:05,900 And the astonishing thing is that until about 100 years ago, Spain -- with the exception of the sensible folk around Malaga, Spain -- was 10 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:10,970 almost unique in Western Europe in ignoring anchovies completely. 11 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,940 It wasn't until after the Second World War that they really got into them in a big way. 12 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:22,070 And it wasn't even Spaniards who built their anchovy industry. 13 00:01:22,250 --> 00:01:31,250 CHRIS: A series of Italians ended up in northern Spain and basically created the modern anchovy industry in Spain. 14 00:01:31,340 --> 00:01:36,020 JEREMY: That's Chris Beckman, author of that new book, A twist in the tail. 15 00:01:36,020 --> 00:01:39,830 And this tale begins in the 1870s. 16 00:01:40,580 --> 00:01:50,390 CHRIS: The story goes that an Italian ambassador was touring northern Spain along the Cantabrian coast and along the Basque coastline, 17 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:57,620 and he was talking to locals, and he'd heard about all these anchovies in the Bay of Biscay that they simply were not interested 18 00:01:57,620 --> 00:02:06,290 in. And in fact, they had mentioned that most of the anchovies they caught as bycatch they were using to fertilize fields because nobody 19 00:02:06,290 --> 00:02:07,700 was interested in them. 20 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:17,270 Flash forward about a year later, he's back in Naples, Italy, and he's mentioning this story to one 21 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:22,790 Angelo Bartolomeo, who's a big Italian seafood distributor. 22 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:28,700 And he basically says there are all these anchovies in northern Spain for the taking. 23 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:36,080 So Bartolomeo outfits a ship, sends it off on kind of a recce, a test run, and sure enough, they hit a gold mine. 24 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,600 I mean, they filled the ship in three weeks. 25 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:44,270 It returns back to Italy and that started the whole phenomenon. 26 00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:47,900 JEREMY: So when you say he filled the ship with anchovies, these are salted anchovies? 27 00:02:49,670 --> 00:02:51,110 CHRIS: Yes, that's correct. 28 00:02:51,110 --> 00:02:58,850 And they actually processed them right there on the deck of the sailing ship because they didn't have a factory at that time. 29 00:02:58,850 --> 00:03:08,750 There were Spanish-owned factories processing hake, bonito, sardines, but nobody was processing these anchovies, so they basically 30 00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:17,420 processed them in barrels with salt, packed them in, started the fermenting process, and then the anchovies fermented en route back to 31 00:03:17,450 --> 00:03:21,710 Italy, arriving in time to be sold on the Italian peninsula. 32 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:29,180 JEREMY: And presumably, you know, Bartolomeo made a packet with this venture and that kept him going back. 33 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,430 CHRIS: That's right. That's exactly. 34 00:03:31,430 --> 00:03:35,810 So what he did is he started sending out agents that worked for him. 35 00:03:35,810 --> 00:03:40,040 And initially it was just a number of them, maybe 4 or 5 in different towns. 36 00:03:40,550 --> 00:03:44,870 They set up basic little salting factories. 37 00:03:44,870 --> 00:03:53,990 And what's interesting is they were very much welcomed in both the Basque and Cantabrian coastline because they weren't a threat to the 38 00:03:53,990 --> 00:04:01,790 Spanish canneries, because they weren't trying to buy the fish the Spanish canneries were buying, and it opened up a new market for the 39 00:04:01,790 --> 00:04:03,800 Spanish and Basque fishermen. 40 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:11,270 And there was even a bonus on top in that the Basque, Spanish, fishermen's, their wives and kids got to go work in the factory. 41 00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:20,870 So it was really kind of one of these win-win situations where they were welcomed and it increased the economics of the whole 42 00:04:20,870 --> 00:04:21,740 coast. 43 00:04:21,770 --> 00:04:30,320 JEREMY: The Spanish, did they show any interest in anchovies at that point, the Spanish canning factories? 44 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,390 CHRIS: No. Not initially. 45 00:04:32,390 --> 00:04:39,020 And a decade or two later, the Spanish realized this was a real viable market. 46 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:47,390 But it was a tricky thing because the Italian processors that were salting these anchovies, they basically had the market locked up. 47 00:04:47,390 --> 00:04:53,360 Because you have to remember, at this time in Spain, the Spanish weren't eating anchovies. 48 00:04:53,390 --> 00:04:56,660 Now that's mostly the Catholic North I'm talking about. 49 00:04:56,660 --> 00:05:06,440 There was, in the south, Malaga that was eating deep fried anchovies, but for the most part, most of the country absolutely did 50 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:07,700 not eat anchovies. 51 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:11,480 And what's interesting is that goes back historically several hundred years. 52 00:05:12,230 --> 00:05:14,810 JEREMY: So the Spanish canneries ... 53 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:24,110 Let me get this straight. The Spanish canneries are focusing on higher value fish, to them, and the anchovies are just trash. 54 00:05:24,110 --> 00:05:28,520 But for the Italians, the anchovies are a big deal. 55 00:05:28,550 --> 00:05:31,550 But they're still salt anchovies. 56 00:05:31,550 --> 00:05:35,240 And most people today, I think ... 57 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,350 Well, very few people today are interested in salt anchovies. 58 00:05:39,350 --> 00:05:41,120 Mostly we buy them in tins. 59 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,850 And that also happened in northern Spain. 60 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,750 CHRIS: That's right. And this is one of those wonderful stories. 61 00:05:47,750 --> 00:05:50,200 It's one of my favorite because ... 62 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:59,450 So one of the agents Bartolomeo sends out is a guy named Giovanni Vella and he's from Trapani, Sicily. 63 00:05:59,450 --> 00:06:07,880 And he is ... Trapani was a big salting town, and he basically, Giovanni Vella worked in North Africa. 64 00:06:07,910 --> 00:06:12,440 He winds up on the wharves of Naples, where he somehow meets Bartolomeo. 65 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:17,180 Bartolomeo backs him, sends him to northern Spain. 66 00:06:17,210 --> 00:06:18,740 And he sets up shop. 67 00:06:18,770 --> 00:06:21,050 JEREMY: You say he's from Trapani? 68 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,130 He works in North Africa. 69 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,100 Is he a salter by profession? 70 00:06:25,130 --> 00:06:28,910 CHRIS: That's right. He kind of grew up in this salting trade. 71 00:06:28,910 --> 00:06:31,850 Because Trapani is famous for its salt flats. 72 00:06:31,850 --> 00:06:38,840 And they salted a lot of fish that then got exported to the mainland of the Italian peninsula. 73 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:45,710 So he had that background and he had honed his skills in North Africa because there wasn't enough work for everyone in Sicily. 74 00:06:45,710 --> 00:06:55,640 And that's how he ends up in the Cantabrian coast, where he meets Dolores Inestrellas, a lovely Spanish woman living in the town of 75 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,490 Santoña, and they end up getting married. 76 00:06:58,490 --> 00:07:04,850 And this is where it's really delightful, because a couple of years after they get married, he builds his first fishing boat to go out and 77 00:07:04,850 --> 00:07:08,210 catch anchovies, and he names it Dolores. 78 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,450 A couple of years after that, he builds a factory. 79 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:14,090 He names his brand La Dolores. 80 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:17,900 And sure enough, after that, when they have a daughter, Dolores. 81 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,010 JEREMY: But he's still doing salt fish at this point. 82 00:07:22,460 --> 00:07:29,810 CHRIS: That's right. And because that was the big moneymaker back in Italy, that's what the Italians wanted. 83 00:07:29,810 --> 00:07:39,600 And the impetus -- because Vella basically is who they attribute the invention of oil packed anchovies to 84 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:49,430 -- and the impetus was, he was trying to crack the Spanish market because his factories would go gangbusters for about two 85 00:07:49,430 --> 00:07:56,660 months of the year during peak anchovy the season, but they were basically sitting idle for most of the year, and he kept trying to 86 00:07:56,660 --> 00:08:00,350 figure out why wouldn't the Spanish eat anchovies? 87 00:08:00,350 --> 00:08:03,470 Because they just weren't interested in salted anchovies. 88 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:05,060 There are a number of reasons for that. 89 00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:06,980 But he started experimenting. 90 00:08:06,980 --> 00:08:14,360 He hired a chemist from Barcelona who came up to the north coast, and initially they worked with butter, but they had real problems with the 91 00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:17,030 butter going rancid in the heat. 92 00:08:17,270 --> 00:08:19,700 But they finally got it to work. 93 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:24,890 The formula with olive oil, packing the anchovy fillets in olive oil. 94 00:08:24,890 --> 00:08:26,270 Now, it didn't take off. 95 00:08:26,270 --> 00:08:27,380 It took a while. 96 00:08:27,410 --> 00:08:37,310 JEREMY: Now the butter thing is interesting because in your book I read that Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, retires to Spain, is very keen 97 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:44,120 on fish, and he actually gets special shipments of potted anchovies, presumably potted in butter. 98 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:49,340 CHRIS: That's right. He has them shipped in and kind of one of the great ... 99 00:08:49,490 --> 00:08:56,180 I mentioned that story to a Spaniard, and he was a little confused, and he thought, Charles, that this was Spanish. 100 00:08:56,180 --> 00:08:59,150 He was like, well, why was this king eating anchovies? 101 00:08:59,150 --> 00:09:07,340 And I said, well, that actually explains it, because he was born in Belgium, and he'd had a history of eating potted fish in northern 102 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:10,400 Europe. So eating anchovies made a lot of sense to him. 103 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,900 But at that time, the Spanish weren't basically eating any anchovies. 104 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:24,680 And the best example of that, if you want to look at it in cookbooks, um, there's one cookbook in 1520, the Art of Cookery by 105 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:30,050 De Nola. And that's basically the first mention of anchovies in a Spanish cookbook. 106 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,850 There's not another mention for the next 225 years. 107 00:09:34,850 --> 00:09:40,790 And meanwhile, in England, France and Italy, they're filled with cookbooks with anchovy recipes. 108 00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:43,040 So that kind of lets you ... 109 00:09:43,190 --> 00:09:46,940 fills you in, in a way of at least elite cookery. 110 00:09:46,940 --> 00:09:50,870 JEREMY: So the Spanish elite just simply regarded them as trash. 111 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:53,510 Okay, back to Vella. 112 00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:57,710 He's got this technique now for packing them in oil. 113 00:09:58,010 --> 00:10:04,070 Are they going into Spain at this point, or is he shipping them back to Italy? 114 00:10:05,150 --> 00:10:08,600 CHRIS: Well, he's actually trying to sell them anywhere. 115 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,180 There's not much of a market in Italy for them. 116 00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:14,150 They really have a long tradition of salted ... 117 00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:16,100 That's a guaranteed product. 118 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:18,260 Everybody's familiar with it. 119 00:10:18,260 --> 00:10:22,700 Because anchovies packed in oil in a tin at that time were more expensive. 120 00:10:23,330 --> 00:10:26,240 That was actually a costlier way to do it. 121 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,800 But very slowly it gets embraced by ... 122 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:39,380 And there's no one exact way that brought these oil packed anchovies to popularity. 123 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:49,310 But one of the the contributing factors was French, because French hotels, posh French hotels, started serving them in things like a 124 00:10:49,820 --> 00:10:56,810 salad, because now you had a very attractive fillet glistening with olive oil, kind of draped on a salad. 125 00:10:56,810 --> 00:10:59,210 And then they would do things like anchovy toast. 126 00:10:59,210 --> 00:11:01,610 So it became kind of a posh thing. 127 00:11:01,610 --> 00:11:04,190 And then they were getting exported to America. 128 00:11:04,190 --> 00:11:05,990 And there there was a market. 129 00:11:06,020 --> 00:11:12,500 JEREMY: Was all the investment in this, was this coming originally from the profits of salted anchovies? 130 00:11:12,950 --> 00:11:14,180 CHRIS: Yes. That's right. 131 00:11:14,180 --> 00:11:23,900 Exactly. So Vella was ploughing his profits from salted anchovies into these oil packed anchovies, trying to create another 132 00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:29,630 market. Because really, what he wanted to do was to figure out how to tap the Spanish market. 133 00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:35,450 And he wanted his factory to be working the other ten months of the year, where it's just right now sitting idle. 134 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,760 JEREMY: But I don't quite understand this. 135 00:11:37,790 --> 00:11:47,780 Why, if the anchovy fishing peak happens for two months of the year, how can the factory work the rest of the year just 136 00:11:47,780 --> 00:11:50,630 because they're putting them in oil rather than in salt. 137 00:11:51,770 --> 00:11:54,860 CHRIS: Well, that's a good question. 138 00:11:54,890 --> 00:12:04,820 Basically what you could do is the salt packing anchovies in oil, what you have to do is you first pack 139 00:12:04,850 --> 00:12:07,610 them in salt as you would traditionally. 140 00:12:08,210 --> 00:12:11,420 They go through a certain maturing process. 141 00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:20,450 Now some of that process often happened as the sailboat went back to Italy, and the warmer the weather -- again, this is a fermenting 142 00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:23,540 product -- so the warmer it is, the faster it's fermenting. 143 00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:29,780 So by doing the fermentation in a factory with a set temperature, he could control that. 144 00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:31,700 And then the packing. 145 00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:40,370 He then could clean those salted anchovies and then prep them and then place them in oil, tin them and then ship them out. 146 00:12:40,370 --> 00:12:44,750 And that puts him in control of a much larger part of the production line. 147 00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:47,000 JEREMY: I see, I see. 148 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,130 So it's a question of spreading it out and ... 149 00:12:49,130 --> 00:12:55,520 But on the voyage back did the salted anchovies, did they stay in good condition? 150 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,490 CHRIS: Well, that's a very good question. 151 00:12:58,490 --> 00:13:08,420 And it speaks to exactly why Vella was so anxious to develop new markets on his own, because actually, all the anchovies 152 00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:11,810 they shipped back to Italy were sold on consignment. 153 00:13:11,810 --> 00:13:16,610 So Vella only got paid when those anchovies were sold on the Italian peninsula. 154 00:13:17,420 --> 00:13:26,000 And that created problems for him, because often the shipments would get delayed in transit and the anchovies would overripen. 155 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:35,960 You know, in these hot holds where it was, you know, 35, 40 Celsius and the anchovies are simply maturing too fast in the barrel. 156 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:42,230 So that all played into the desire for all these independent salters to create new markets. 157 00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:45,440 JEREMY: And how how quickly was Vella copied? 158 00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:52,160 I mean, you know, like with the salt anchovies, did people see this and say, oh, I want part of that. 159 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:55,130 CHRIS: You know, interestingly enough, no. 160 00:13:55,190 --> 00:14:04,070 It took quite a while, and there's no exact consensus, but it took about a decade before it started to really take 161 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:07,040 off, and it just wasn't embraced. 162 00:14:07,070 --> 00:14:10,310 And I think a lot of that has to do that there was a price factor. 163 00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:12,290 There was a jump up in cost. 164 00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:18,440 And I think people at that time, you know, for the most part, just just couldn't afford it. 165 00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:21,890 JEREMY: But you say the French were making it chic. 166 00:14:22,190 --> 00:14:29,930 Were elite Spaniards becoming interested in canned anchovies as a result of the French making it chic? 167 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:32,210 CHRIS: Yes, exactly. 168 00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:37,550 That's how they kind of were taking their culinary cues from France. 169 00:14:37,550 --> 00:14:41,000 And this had been going on, mind you, for about 200 years. 170 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,370 You know, at the Spanish court their menus were written in French. 171 00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:52,400 Dishes were served in French cuisine and you know, indeed, not just in Spain, in Italy. 172 00:14:52,400 --> 00:15:01,700 And French cuisine was considered the dominant, sophisticated cuisine that every elite wanted to eat. 173 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:09,680 And so when the French started including them, then the Spanish elites started following their cues and very soon started embracing 174 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:10,730 them on their own. 175 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:18,500 JEREMY: Okay. So at at present, the Spanish are the world's top anchovy eaters. 176 00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:22,060 They eat something ridiculous like 2. 177 00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:23,930 ... What have you got in your book? 178 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,790 2.69, 2.7, almost 3 kilograms per person per year. 179 00:15:28,820 --> 00:15:30,680 How did that happen? 180 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:40,790 CHRIS: This is an absolutely crazy story that you would never think would be how anchovies got popularized in Spain, because you have to remember 181 00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:42,830 again, they weren't eating anchovies. 182 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:45,710 Nobody. Not the poor, not the middle class. 183 00:15:45,740 --> 00:15:48,440 Not elites. Nobody was eating anchovies. 184 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:54,410 But a good place to start to untangle this is with Franco, interestingly enough. 185 00:15:54,410 --> 00:16:03,860 And General Franco and the Civil War, he instituted a policy of self-sufficiency and it went terribly awry and basically led to 186 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:08,600 huge food shortages, disastrous food shortages. 187 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:15,650 And this period of Spanish history is kind of known as the misery, because over half the country was basically starving. 188 00:16:15,650 --> 00:16:25,340 And so what you found is, for the first time, they're shipping fresh anchovies from the coast into Madrid because people are 189 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:28,700 starving. Now again, 30, 40, 50 years ago, they wouldn't eat those. 190 00:16:28,850 --> 00:16:31,760 If they wanted fish, they could buy bacalao, right? 191 00:16:31,790 --> 00:16:36,830 Dried cod for not much more money and they got a big piece of fish. 192 00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:39,830 But now they're starving for anything they can get. 193 00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:41,660 So they're starting to eat fresh anchovies. 194 00:16:41,690 --> 00:16:47,900 They're starting to eat salted anchovies, and they're starting to eat oil packed if they have the money. 195 00:16:47,930 --> 00:16:50,330 JEREMY: And that's because transport has improved. 196 00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:56,450 So you can actually get fresh fish on ice by truck or by railway into the centre of the country. 197 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,820 CHRIS: That's right. That's exactly right. 198 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:05,300 And then another factor that plays into this is times were so tough, everyone was so poor. 199 00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:14,750 And post-World War Two, you know, Italy got jumpstarted by being part of the Marshall Plan, which injected ... 200 00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:19,010 was a huge cash infusion that stimulated, helped to stimulate the economy. 201 00:17:19,970 --> 00:17:27,020 Spain was ruled out of the Marshall Plan because of Franco was still in power, and it just simply languished. 202 00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:29,810 So many Spaniards worked two jobs. 203 00:17:29,810 --> 00:17:32,720 It was very common that people worked two jobs. 204 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:40,700 And so what they started doing is, after they would finish one shift, en route to their second shift, they would stop in a taberna and get a 205 00:17:40,910 --> 00:17:42,110 quick bite to eat. 206 00:17:42,110 --> 00:17:51,770 And suddenly tapas became the perfect solution to this problem because it was a salty, wet ,,, Taberna owners loved them because it 207 00:17:51,770 --> 00:17:53,000 made people want to drink more. 208 00:17:53,030 --> 00:17:58,580 Right? When you have a salty potato chip or a peanut or an anchovy, you're going to drink more. 209 00:17:58,580 --> 00:18:01,160 And it gave a little sustenance. 210 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,050 And tapas are a funny thing. 211 00:18:03,050 --> 00:18:04,970 They're they're ... 212 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,560 It's a way of eating. 213 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,180 It's not a meal. 214 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:09,320 It's not an ingredient. 215 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:18,980 It's kind of a funny Spanish way of eating, where it's you're having these almost snack like things between meals, and anchovies just fit 216 00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:20,150 the bill to a T. 217 00:18:20,180 --> 00:18:26,150 JEREMY: And the same is true for pintxos in the Basque Country, that it's the same principle there. 218 00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:30,860 Yes. So what are inventive chefs doing? 219 00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:32,600 Or maybe they're not chefs. 220 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,130 Maybe they're just taverna owners. 221 00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:41,510 But what are they doing with anchovies that makes them so attractive that the Spanish are eating almost three kilos a year of them. 222 00:18:42,170 --> 00:18:45,560 CHRIS: You know, Jeremy, I wish I had a good answer to that question. 223 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:47,450 It's one of these mysteries. 224 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:56,450 It just seems to be the right kind of way of eating for the right people at the right time, where they're just tapas mad. 225 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,030 I don't have a good explanation for that. 226 00:18:59,210 --> 00:19:08,900 JEREMY: But it's incredibly strange that for, I don't know, nine-tenths of their history, they wouldn't eat an anchovy if you paid them 227 00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,660 to. And then suddenly they go anchovy mad. 228 00:19:11,690 --> 00:19:18,110 And do they, do modern Spaniards realize this aspect of their culinary history? 229 00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:19,940 CHRIS: You know, it's interesting. 230 00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:21,170 I'll tell you a quick little story. 231 00:19:21,170 --> 00:19:25,280 When I was writing the book, I went to northern Spain, actually, Santoña. 232 00:19:25,310 --> 00:19:28,970 I was doing research, and one day, I'd been in the museum. 233 00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:34,910 That evening, I went to a bar, and I was having a bite to eat, some anchovies and a glass of wine, and a gentleman saw me, and he was very 234 00:19:34,910 --> 00:19:37,880 pleased, the Spanish gentleman, to see me eating anchovies. 235 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,190 And he said, you know, that's really wonderful. 236 00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:43,100 You know, I love anchovies. 237 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:44,210 It's great to see you eating them. 238 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,010 You know, anchovies are in our blood. 239 00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:49,760 My family's been eating them for 500 years. 240 00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:52,370 And, you know, I was a guest. 241 00:19:52,370 --> 00:19:54,050 I didn't really want to contradict him. 242 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:56,510 But actually, I wanted to say. 243 00:19:56,510 --> 00:19:57,980 Well, not really. 244 00:19:57,980 --> 00:20:01,430 A hundred years ago, your relatives were using them on your fields. 245 00:20:01,430 --> 00:20:09,380 So it's an absolutely fascinating phenomena how the pendulum has swung in Spain with anchovies. 246 00:20:09,410 --> 00:20:13,820 JEREMY: Did you disabuse him of his what I call invented tradition? 247 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:22,910 CHRIS: I did not, I have a special place in my heart for invented traditions, because I think we all carry them around. 248 00:20:22,910 --> 00:20:30,320 And as an American, I'm particularly prone to invented traditions because I notice a lot of Americans have ... 249 00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:34,910 They don't, we don't have a strong idea of our background the way some Europeans do. 250 00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:37,280 So we're filled with invented traditions. 251 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,340 So I let him relish that one. 252 00:20:40,850 --> 00:20:47,930 JEREMY: Christopher Beckmann, whose new book is called A twist in the tail: how the humble anchovy flavoured Western cuisine. 253 00:20:47,930 --> 00:20:51,470 Link in the show notes as usual, and you'll find them at EatThisPodcast.com. 254 00:20:54,530 --> 00:21:00,680 I should add that Spain is just one of the countries that Chris covers in meticulous detail. 255 00:21:00,710 --> 00:21:06,770 Ancient Rome, France, Britain and Italy all get a look in alongside Spain. 256 00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:14,060 He even devotes some time to anchovies in America and a history of Caesar's salad. 257 00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:19,490 All of which made me wonder what inspired him to write the book. 258 00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:29,900 CHRIS: You know, it started when I was in my 20s and I was flat broke, and I was living in Los Angeles, and I noticed this ... 259 00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:32,960 I mean, I always ate a lot of different foods. 260 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,210 Anchovies were simply one of many different foods. 261 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:44,430 But I noticed if I had friends over and I made a very simple pasta, I mean, literally some pasta, maybe a little garlic, a little olive oil, 262 00:21:44,430 --> 00:21:46,260 and a can of crushed tomatoes. 263 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:49,770 If I just simply added a little anchovy to that, it was transformative. 264 00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:54,030 And when I would serve that, everyone liked it. 265 00:21:54,030 --> 00:21:56,910 But if I mentioned at the end of the meal, did you notice? 266 00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:58,680 You know what? What did you think? There were anchovies. 267 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,630 I could see in a friend a little, kind of a little ... 268 00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:05,370 Their expression would change. 269 00:22:05,370 --> 00:22:10,980 And if I mentioned before dinner there was an anchovy in it, often somebody wouldn't even try it. 270 00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:17,520 So there was something about anchovies that people have this love hate relationship to. 271 00:22:18,030 --> 00:22:23,340 JEREMY: Yeah, but ending up writing a whole book about anchovies, that's taking it a bit far. 272 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,810 CHRIS: You know, I tried to let anchovies go, but I just couldn't. 273 00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:34,190 And so later on, when I got into archaeology, I kept gravitating back to food. 274 00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:38,450 Looking at why people ate foods the way they did at certain times in history. 275 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:47,210 And I was always consistently bothered over the years about what is it with anchovies that is so divisive? 276 00:22:47,210 --> 00:22:54,350 And basically, eventually I just had to sit down and buckle up and write the book to try and get to the bottom of it. 277 00:22:54,890 --> 00:22:56,930 JEREMY: And I'm really glad he did. 278 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,330 Absolutely fascinating stuff. 279 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:08,180 My thanks, then, to Chris Beckmann, to you for staying the course and to the generous people who help the show with their donations. 280 00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:14,210 You can join them at EatThisPodcast.com/supporters. 281 00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:23,060 Till the next time -- and no more anchovies for now -- from me, Jeremy Cherfas and Eat This Podcast, goodbye and thanks for listening.