1 00:00:06,890 --> 00:00:12,560 JEREMY: Hello and welcome to another episode of Eat This Podcast with me, Jeremy Cherfas. 2 00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:23,330 ANNA: The pat answer to how do you change people's diets for better health is you tell them what to eat and they have to figure it out. 3 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:29,420 What we've discovered is that for 2.8 billion people in the world, that's not going to work. 4 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,540 JEREMY: That's Anna Herforth, a nutrition researcher at Tufts University in Boston. 5 00:00:36,590 --> 00:00:46,370 I last spoke to Anna Herforth in March 2021, soon after, FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization, published a report 6 00:00:46,370 --> 00:00:51,590 on The Cost and Affordability of Healthy Diets Across and Within Countries. 7 00:00:53,030 --> 00:01:02,250 Anna and her colleagues gathered the data to show that a healthy diet was beyond the reach of almost 3 billion people around the 8 00:01:02,250 --> 00:01:12,120 world. Since then, the project has continued to gather and analyze information on the cost of a healthy diet, and that's matured 9 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:17,130 into an index that's tracked by the FAO and by the World Bank. 10 00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:22,350 And that index is beginning to have an impact on government policy. 11 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:32,610 Anna Herforth and Will Masters, an agricultural economist at Tufts who leads the food prices for nutrition team, were in Rome a few days ago 12 00:01:32,610 --> 00:01:35,520 for a workshop on the cost of a healthy diet. 13 00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:44,310 That's how I found myself on the terrace of the World Bank's offices, high above the traffic on the Via Veneto, apologies for the noise, 14 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:53,730 talking to Anna and Will and two of their colleagues, Oletayo Adeyemi, who works with the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry 15 00:01:53,730 --> 00:02:03,450 of Planning in Nigeria, and Imran Choisa, Principal Statistician at the National Statistical Office of Malawi and a data analyst for the 16 00:02:03,450 --> 00:02:09,060 project. I started by asking Anna Herforth about the origins of their work. 17 00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:14,370 ANNA: Originally, so we started back in 2016. 18 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:24,240 We've been working on using food prices for nutrition, and the impetus was looking at how the world defines food security, how the UN 19 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:33,480 defines food security as access by all people at all times to sufficient, safe, nutritious food to meet dietary needs for an active 20 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:34,620 and healthy life. 21 00:02:34,620 --> 00:02:42,060 And when you think about what that means, that food security is nutritious food to meet dietary needs, that really wasn't being 22 00:02:42,090 --> 00:02:51,660 tracked by the global indicators at the time of hunger and food insecurity experience asked by questionnaires. 23 00:02:52,620 --> 00:03:01,270 And so we started with the idea of could we use food prices to understand access to healthy diets? 24 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:10,450 Can people actually go to the market and purchase a diet that is being recommended to consume to meet their dietary needs by food-based 25 00:03:10,450 --> 00:03:13,930 dietary guidelines, sets recommendations around what people should eat. 26 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,760 Can they actually do that? 27 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,920 Can they actually go to the market and do that? 28 00:03:17,950 --> 00:03:24,670 JEREMY: But is that a question of what's in the market or is it a question of can they buy what's in the market? 29 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:25,990 ANNA: It's both. 30 00:03:26,020 --> 00:03:29,320 It's both. But there's a lot of foods in the market. 31 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:36,730 And when you, when people are being advised to eat a certain way, it is a question of doesn't it or does it exist there? 32 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:43,960 And do all the food groups that are recommended -- fruits, vegetables, animal sourced foods in addition to the starchy staples? 33 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:45,040 Are they present? 34 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:51,100 but also what's the least cost that they would have to spend to purchase those items and consume them? 35 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:52,330 And can they afford it? 36 00:03:53,410 --> 00:04:02,840 JEREMY: This idea of least cost for a nutritious diet assumes you kind of know what the nutritious diet is, and you go to the market and you want to 37 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,520 buy it. So how do you actually calculate the least cost for a nutritious diet? 38 00:04:07,790 --> 00:04:16,010 WILL: Yeah. So we have scientific consensus about what is a healthy diet that comes from the convening of nutritional epidemiologists, 39 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:25,820 nutrition scientists who know about biochemistry and the mechanisms of human nutrition to identify what are the vitamins, minerals, 40 00:04:25,820 --> 00:04:32,030 macronutrients, protein that are needed in certain proportions for metabolism and lifelong health. 41 00:04:32,030 --> 00:04:40,280 So those dietary guidelines are expressed in terms of food groups, nutritionally defined, not defined the way you might for other 42 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:42,800 statistics, but for nutritional statistics. 43 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,180 We redefine items into food groups that meet these human needs. 44 00:04:47,180 --> 00:04:54,690 So identifying the quantities of each of these nutritional food groups and then matching foods to their composition. 45 00:04:54,690 --> 00:04:59,460 To know that if you have a mango in a certain country, how big is that mango? 46 00:04:59,460 --> 00:05:02,310 And what is its price per unit of fruit? 47 00:05:02,310 --> 00:05:04,380 What is its price per unit of fish? 48 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:07,290 If it's dried fish or a big fish, you'd have very different composition. 49 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:10,590 Some fish have a lot of water, some have less water. 50 00:05:10,590 --> 00:05:18,330 So you'd want to be able to match each item to its nutritional composition, and then use these software tools to compute the least 51 00:05:18,330 --> 00:05:26,160 expensive way of getting the compounds, the vitamins, minerals, macronutrients that you would need for an active and healthy life. 52 00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:33,540 JEREMY: But the the person at the market buying their diet doesn't do that computation. 53 00:05:34,590 --> 00:05:39,720 So is this is this really a way of being able to compare countries? 54 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:49,590 WILL: What we're comparing is food systems, food systems that produce and deliver these foods with their nutritional value or lack of 55 00:05:49,590 --> 00:05:58,380 value to people in often very remote places at lean seasons long after harvest. 56 00:05:58,380 --> 00:06:01,230 And we're measuring the ability of the food system to actually do that. 57 00:06:01,710 --> 00:06:11,280 Now, whether people choose those foods is a separate question, and a big part of our project is to compare what people actually choose with 58 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,620 what would be possible to buy. 59 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:17,310 And that helps us to know why people aren't getting a healthy diet. 60 00:06:17,310 --> 00:06:18,780 Is it because of high prices? 61 00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:25,980 Is it because of low incomes, or is it because of the problem that you can't see, taste, or smell the nutritional composition of food? 62 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:29,730 And this is not something that people necessarily know. 63 00:06:29,730 --> 00:06:36,870 So we're trying to bridge these gaps between the cost of delivering the food, the income people have for food, and the ability of people 64 00:06:36,870 --> 00:06:40,530 to make food choices that would lead to a lifelong health. 65 00:06:41,010 --> 00:06:50,710 JEREMY: And these three different reasons why people are maybe not buying the most nutritionally adequate diet they could, does it vary from 66 00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:52,060 place to place? 67 00:06:52,060 --> 00:06:57,640 And what does that ... What are the implications for how to tackle the problems? 68 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,360 ANNA: It certainly does vary from place to place. 69 00:07:01,570 --> 00:07:10,480 You know, one of the big motivations in looking at access to healthy diets, in terms of the economic cost in the market, is that coming 70 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:18,700 from the field of nutrition, the pat answer to how do you change people's diets for better health is you tell them what to eat and they 71 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:19,960 have to figure it out. 72 00:07:20,350 --> 00:07:26,200 What we've discovered is that for 2.8 billion people in the world, that's not going to work. 73 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:36,100 Because if you tell someone that you should have half of the plate in fruits and vegetables and a certain proportion of animal 74 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:45,070 sourced foods and legumes and nuts and seeds to give them the balanced diet in terms of, you know, nutrients and health protective 75 00:07:45,070 --> 00:07:54,920 components that they need, those elements of the diet are more expensive than starchy staples, oils and fats and often 76 00:07:54,920 --> 00:08:04,640 sugar. And so what we see is that in a lot of places, the poorest people are eating diets that are up to 75 to 80 percent 77 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:05,780 from starches. 78 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:10,160 And we know that that's not going to provide their dietary needs. 79 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:20,060 And when you try to advise people who have severe income constraints to just add more healthy foods, and you 80 00:08:20,060 --> 00:08:24,320 go to the market and you look at the prices, you understand immediately why they can't do that. 81 00:08:24,380 --> 00:08:30,590 And so we don't need to just tell people that it's their responsibility to figure out how to get those foods, but actually work 82 00:08:30,590 --> 00:08:36,680 with food systems to figure out how we could make all of those items more available and more affordable. 83 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:41,390 And then in some cases, removing income constraints. 84 00:08:41,390 --> 00:08:47,520 And this was what immediately happened in Nigeria when they started measuring this indicator. 85 00:08:47,790 --> 00:08:49,410 JEREMY: What a very nice cue. 86 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,320 Thank you. Let's go to Nigeria. 87 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:57,660 What did the numbers reveal about the cost of a nutritious diet in Nigeria? 88 00:08:58,620 --> 00:09:05,340 TAYO: So firstly, the numbers revealed that the cost of nutritious diets are considered low by many people. 89 00:09:05,370 --> 00:09:11,670 Like by most policymakers, they look at the numbers and say, oh, is it that low to consume a healthy diet? 90 00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:19,230 And they are a little bit skeptical when they see it, because it looks a lot lower than what they spend on food. 91 00:09:19,230 --> 00:09:24,690 But then they realize that the baskets are also not the things they would normally eat. 92 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:33,420 But then I think what makes it very striking for them is then when they compare those numbers to income and they realize that even though 93 00:09:33,420 --> 00:09:41,910 the numbers are low, like the cost of the healthy diet is low, a lot of people, like a significant proportion of the population, cannot 94 00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:43,320 afford those low cost. 95 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:52,620 And it's clear any way you look at it, whether through people's expenditures or through the minimum wage or the average 96 00:09:52,770 --> 00:09:59,520 wages that people who work for the government are paid, then you realize that people just cannot afford this low cost. 97 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:07,950 And so it has been a very striking indicator for them because it sort of like emphasizes 98 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:17,160 that the malnutrition we have -- and we have a lot of it in Nigeria -- is that food security is a real issue. 99 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,810 Before, when you say the numbers, people think, oh, okay, maybe they can't eat this kind of food. 100 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,740 Or when you say this number of people are poor, they say, oh, maybe they can't buy fancy clothes. 101 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:32,340 But when you give this very low number and you say this is the cost of a healthy diet and you compare it to incomes and you say this many 102 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:38,550 people cannot afford it, then it's clear to them that, okay, there is a problem here. 103 00:10:39,270 --> 00:10:44,800 JEREMY: So having recognized the problem, have they actually ... 104 00:10:44,830 --> 00:10:47,800 Has the government of Nigeria actually responded? 105 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,050 And are they doing something about it? 106 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:51,940 TAYO: So in a ... 107 00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:56,890 so one of the things is that the cost of healthy diet has also been increasing since like 2020. 108 00:10:57,430 --> 00:11:05,260 And so I mean, inflation has been going up and then the cost of healthy diet has been increasing, but at a much faster rate than 109 00:11:05,260 --> 00:11:10,690 inflation. And so there has been a lot of pressure on the government to increase wages. 110 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,950 And so the government says, okay, if we want to increase wages, what should we consider? 111 00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:24,580 And so the Bureau of Statistics that calculates the cost of healthy diet, as well as the inflation indicators gave the government 112 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:31,510 the consumer price index as well as the cost of healthy diets to make the decision about where to put wages. 113 00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:40,630 And the cost of healthy diet was really a game changer, because when the government first set a minimum wage, then the labor union said, 114 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:44,240 but look, the cost of healthy diets is this amount. 115 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:54,110 And even with this wage you are proposing, it's still going to be very difficult for families to afford a healthy diet and a lot 116 00:11:54,140 --> 00:11:55,850 of other basic needs. 117 00:11:55,850 --> 00:12:03,050 And so based on the cost of healthy diets, they were able to negotiate for a minimum wage that is more than twice what it used to 118 00:12:03,050 --> 00:12:05,960 be. So that happened this year, 2024. 119 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,990 JEREMY: And it's only just happened. 120 00:12:09,050 --> 00:12:13,790 What do you what do you think the impact will be overall? 121 00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:16,370 TAYO: So I think it's hard to say. 122 00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:21,850 We know that when wages go up, some other things may also ... 123 00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:24,260 like other things may go up. 124 00:12:24,260 --> 00:12:27,800 So the implementation is just starting I think in a lot of places. 125 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,140 It started in maybe August, September. 126 00:12:30,140 --> 00:12:37,510 So, we are going to have to wait a while to see what the full impact is going to be, but at least it's ... 127 00:12:37,510 --> 00:12:47,100 Important conversations are starting to happen, and we are starting to see policy making in line with true welfare of the 128 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:47,880 people. 129 00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:57,240 JEREMY: So, okay, you put up you put up the minimum wage so people can afford a nutritious diet, and then the price of food goes up. 130 00:12:57,390 --> 00:13:06,720 WILL: Yes, there's a big challenge in trying to make sure that food in particular stays at a level that's relatively low compared to things 131 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:14,850 that are needed for other purposes, but that without health you can't take advantage of education, you can't take advantage of other 132 00:13:14,850 --> 00:13:16,140 opportunities without health. 133 00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:25,950 So this basic need is something that we're able to shine a light on and try to ensure that people orient policies 134 00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:29,310 towards lower cost foods. 135 00:13:29,310 --> 00:13:39,210 One big issue is whether the low cost options are, in fact, kept available around the country throughout the year, in contrast to 136 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:47,280 more luxurious options, and one of the big problems is that often decision makers are living in a bit of a bubble, and they tend to 137 00:13:47,310 --> 00:13:54,900 focus on nicer foods and being sure that there are apples available, that there are more luxurious products available, and just ensuring 138 00:13:54,900 --> 00:14:00,120 that the basics are present is something that's very important for low income people in particular. 139 00:14:00,270 --> 00:14:06,330 JEREMY: Now that reflects exactly what Tayo was saying about, you know, it being a wake up call when they actually see the numbers. 140 00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:16,410 As a general rule, is it more important to increase incomes or decrease the price, or reduce the price, of the more nutritious 141 00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:17,280 foods? 142 00:14:17,460 --> 00:14:24,570 WILL: The most important fact about this new kind of measurement is that it's new, and that we've only just begun to accumulate enough 143 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:33,450 observations in enough different places to begin to even explain why there's the variation we observe and what the consequences of that 144 00:14:33,450 --> 00:14:34,950 variation are. 145 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:46,000 I would say initial indications are that much of the undernutrition in the world is truly due to low incomes, but there is 146 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:55,390 still a lot that's due to the high cost of production and distribution of these nutrient rich foods that are protective against 147 00:14:55,390 --> 00:15:04,150 metabolic diseases through the life course and also bring nutrients to avoid micronutrient malnutrition, the vitamin A deficiency, the 148 00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:06,940 anaemia that is still very prevalent in the world. 149 00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:08,080 And that those ... 150 00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:11,380 The costs of those foods can come down quite a bit with agricultural investments. 151 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,590 That would matter a lot. 152 00:15:14,590 --> 00:15:23,470 But there is this problem of food choice that it's so hard to know what is healthy or isn't healthy when companies are marketing 153 00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:27,130 healthful attributes that aren't really healthy and so forth. 154 00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:32,590 So we see quite a lot of food choice mattering still. 155 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:39,350 So prices, incomes, and food choice all matter a lot, but it's just early days on understanding how much. 156 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:50,120 JEREMY: Countries are at different stages of making use of the project and, beginning to, to, to influence policy. 157 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:58,280 So in Malawi, how how has the project influenced what you've been doing in Malawi? 158 00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:08,450 IMRAN: So, in this project in Malawi, we started last year and we've 159 00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:14,990 been doing some analysis using the historical data, and we've got the results. 160 00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:25,520 We've conducted one of the stakeholder consultation meetings and where we saw the demand from the 161 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,040 stakeholders about this kind of indicator. 162 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:37,590 So we are still in the process of getting these numbers published, as well as to engage the 163 00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:45,570 relevant policy holders so that they can promote some of the policies based on the results that we are getting. 164 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:50,970 JEREMY: My understanding is that Malawi is actually more dependent, more ... 165 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:58,230 There are more smallholder farmers who are sort of subsistence farmers compared to Nigeria. 166 00:16:58,260 --> 00:17:08,010 Does it make much of a difference when people are mostly growing food for themselves and have a small surplus to sell at the 167 00:17:08,010 --> 00:17:13,800 market, versus a more market oriented economy for food? 168 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:16,530 Do you think it is a big difference going to show up there? 169 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,770 IMRAN: I think there is a big difference. 170 00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:26,070 But then, you know, in Malawi, the agriculture mostly depends on the rainfed. 171 00:17:26,850 --> 00:17:28,500 It's rainfed agriculture. 172 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:36,330 So the availability, the supply of the food items is seasonal, mostly. 173 00:17:36,990 --> 00:17:46,710 And even for those subsistence farmers that purely depend on farming to get their food, sometimes due 174 00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:56,100 to the rains and some issues of seasonality, we find that they are not able 175 00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:00,990 to consume the food they produce throughout the year. 176 00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:08,340 So in a way, they still have to find a way to purchase these food items from the market. 177 00:18:08,430 --> 00:18:17,990 And the prices for the food in general is so volatile in Malawi because of these issues of seasonality. 178 00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:26,850 We have in the recent past, from around 2019, 2020, we have been having some economic shocks. 179 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:37,030 We recently have the cyclones and most of the fields were washed away when the 180 00:18:37,030 --> 00:18:41,800 farmers had already planted their, you know, their crops. 181 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:49,360 So this has forced a lot of farmers to find other means of getting their food. 182 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:59,260 So this is basically from the markets or maybe from, you know, other donors who might come, some relief items and so on. 183 00:18:59,260 --> 00:19:00,610 So, yeah. 184 00:19:00,730 --> 00:19:03,560 Yeah, Malawi is mostly ... 185 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,590 People produce their own food. 186 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:13,510 But then due to these economic shocks, we still need to also get these foods from the market. 187 00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:17,980 ANNA: I wanted to add something based on what you're saying about seasonality. 188 00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:28,720 This illustrates exactly why it's important that countries are also calculating this indicator of cost of a healthy 189 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:38,600 diet within the country, because the organization, the the national statistical organization where Imran is 190 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,520 working with the price data, is collecting prices in all the seasons. 191 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:50,840 Every month, they're collecting new prices so they can see what's happening over the year in different seasons, in different parts of 192 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,340 the country. Who can't access a healthy diet in the market, when and where. 193 00:19:56,090 --> 00:20:01,100 And this is something that in the global monitoring of this indicator, we can't see. 194 00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:09,830 FAO tracks this indicator annually for every country, but the level of data that's available is at national level -- you can't see within 195 00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:15,530 a country what's happening -- and for the entire year, so you can't see what's happening seasonally. 196 00:20:15,530 --> 00:20:25,190 And so for these kinds of potential informing potential policy actions or programmatic responses, the data 197 00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:32,220 that Imran's organization is constantly dealing with is the data that will show when and where the problem is. 198 00:20:32,250 --> 00:20:34,230 JEREMY: And is that the same in Nigeria? 199 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:37,890 Are you collecting data monthly from every region? 200 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:47,190 TAYO: Yes. So the National Bureau of Statistics collects data for rural and urban for 36 states as well as the Federal Capital Territory. 201 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:52,740 So 37 locations, and this is collected monthly. 202 00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:57,030 And the cost of healthy diet is calculated monthly for these 37 strata. 203 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:02,250 So it helps them to see where costs are high and where they are low. 204 00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:06,870 And so we're trying to understand better what might be the reason for the differences. 205 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,930 JEREMY: That sounds like something all countries should be doing. 206 00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:10,980 ANNA: Well, they are. 207 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:15,450 And that's why this project is leveraging what already exists. 208 00:21:15,450 --> 00:21:18,270 So not every country is calculating the cost of a healthy diet. 209 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:23,310 These are, Nigeria and Malawi are, two, you know, pioneering countries in that regard. 210 00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:28,650 But all countries are collecting monthly prices for their consumer price index. 211 00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:34,890 And so the beauty of the indicator is that there's no new data collection that needs to happen. 212 00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:42,120 The data is already there in all countries, which food prices are a very important part of inflation monitoring. 213 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:43,890 So the food prices are already there. 214 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:50,310 It's a matter of analyzing those prices to understand the cost of a healthy diet that consumers are facing in the market. 215 00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:53,820 JEREMY: This sounds so easy and so efficient. 216 00:21:53,820 --> 00:22:00,750 Can you just give them a software package and they find out what their cost of a healthy diet is. 217 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:02,070 IMRAN: Yeah, exactly. 218 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:08,010 So as Anna said, we are already collecting this kind of data. 219 00:22:08,010 --> 00:22:17,670 So there is no additional effort in collecting the data we already have that we are using for the CPI computation. 220 00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:27,370 So the Food Price for Nutrition project developed some tools, some metrics that have been 221 00:22:27,370 --> 00:22:37,300 standardized. And we are using these tools, you know, just to customize them so that we can use for our case, like 222 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:44,110 for Malawi, make sure that we organize our data and feed the data into that system. 223 00:22:44,110 --> 00:22:49,540 And already the system has the formulas built. 224 00:22:49,810 --> 00:22:59,680 So once you update the numbers, you customize your data to fit into this, once we do 225 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:07,660 all these processes, we feed the data into the system. 226 00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:09,130 We feed the ... 227 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,690 We do the food matching and yes, yeah, we have the numbers automatically. 228 00:23:14,620 --> 00:23:18,670 JEREMY: And are lots of countries coming to you for advice as to how they should do this? 229 00:23:19,660 --> 00:23:20,800 IMRAN: Not yet. 230 00:23:20,830 --> 00:23:24,830 Maybe Nigeria, because they are already advanced. 231 00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:26,530 But yeah, we ... 232 00:23:26,530 --> 00:23:36,440 since we are one of the pioneering countries in this project, we are ready to assist whatever country wants 233 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,540 to be part of this project. 234 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,660 JEREMY: Will, let me ask you ... 235 00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:49,430 I last spoke to Anna in 2021 when the first big tranche of data came out, I think. 236 00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:52,760 Let's do time travel, go forward ten years. 237 00:23:52,790 --> 00:23:59,300 What has happened to the cost of a nutritional diet. 238 00:23:59,690 --> 00:24:08,720 WILL: So we certainly hope, we believe, and I think it is truly possible that in ten years there would be, first of all, global development 239 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:17,030 goals that specify each person should actually have access to a healthy diet that meets the national dietary guidelines of their 240 00:24:17,030 --> 00:24:26,970 country, and that those goals get acted upon in ways that begin with measurement, that continue through interpretation and 241 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:35,850 use of the data to guide investments in agriculture, which currently do not focus on these healthier foods and certainly do not focus on 242 00:24:35,850 --> 00:24:38,670 the low cost versions of the food. 243 00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:47,280 People who are agriculturalists want farmers to become richer, so they tend to focus on the needs of richer customers, and the low cost 244 00:24:47,310 --> 00:24:49,200 options are often neglected. 245 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:52,110 Also, fruits and vegetables are often neglected. 246 00:24:52,110 --> 00:24:56,520 Simple dairy products -- the low cost yogurts -- are often neglected. 247 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:05,310 And when we shine a light on them, we can see that there are opportunities to meet the needs of the large majority of people who 248 00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:10,470 currently are often neglected, because for each customer, it's a relatively low income. 249 00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:17,250 But with identifying the need, the opportunity, we think we can actually achieve this goal. 250 00:25:17,250 --> 00:25:20,760 If we identify it, we measure it and communicate clearly what's at stake. 251 00:25:21,630 --> 00:25:29,970 JEREMY: It seems to be, from what I've heard, that the project is kind of running along smoothly. 252 00:25:29,970 --> 00:25:35,580 It needs to be taken up in more detail by some, by some places, many places. 253 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:45,990 But basically gathering the data, analyzing the data, the kinds of recommendations you might get out of the 254 00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:49,440 data -- that seems to be chugging along. 255 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,790 So what now? 256 00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:56,280 ANNA: Well, what started as a project has become a global indicator. 257 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:01,080 So it has moved out of the phase of really being called a project at this point. 258 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:10,590 It's a global indicator that's tracked by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, with key data inputs from the World Bank. 259 00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:16,200 And these two institutions are publishing the indicator for all countries around the world every year. 260 00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:25,030 And this information has changed the discourse on what's talked about in terms of access to food. 261 00:26:25,060 --> 00:26:27,010 It's not just access to calories. 262 00:26:27,670 --> 00:26:31,240 It's not just the poor need more starchy staples. 263 00:26:31,270 --> 00:26:34,690 It's everyone needs access to healthy diets. 264 00:26:34,690 --> 00:26:44,230 And so that has become embedded in the discourse about food as far as countries own 265 00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:46,510 data systems and practices. 266 00:26:46,540 --> 00:26:56,230 This is, I think, the next frontier, of moving the conversation and the potential actions into countries, and what has happened in Nigeria 267 00:26:56,230 --> 00:27:04,720 and Malawi and some other countries who have come together here in Rome to share experiences, illustrates how that's starting to happen. 268 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:14,590 And the next step, I think, there does need to be kind of a global system where the support to use 269 00:27:14,590 --> 00:27:24,590 the software tools that Imran was referring to, to analyze the data and, you know, the use of the data 270 00:27:24,590 --> 00:27:27,240 within countries, is ... 271 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:33,080 That's the next step is to facilitate that process within countries around the world, which has only just begun. 272 00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:38,270 JEREMY: Just one thing. I mean, the SDGs, the Sustainable Development Goals. 273 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:41,450 We're at, what, six years, five years away from ... 274 00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:44,480 Some of them will happen. Some of them won't happen. 275 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:50,840 Is the cost of a nutritious diet, is that the next big ... 276 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,620 Is that the next big global goal? 277 00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:56,720 Is that the one for 2040? 278 00:27:56,750 --> 00:28:01,160 WILL: We certainly believe that this is the kind of goal that governments can embrace. 279 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,320 It's something that is achievable. 280 00:28:03,410 --> 00:28:07,730 All of humanity is about setting aspirational goals for ourselves, individually, our families. 281 00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:09,500 This is an aspirational goal. 282 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,170 We're not there yet, but it is something that can be done. 283 00:28:12,170 --> 00:28:21,440 So I certainly believe that governments can come around to seeing this as a measurable goal that is achievable, that is aspirational -- 284 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:31,320 because we're not there yet -- and that could be a successor, a part of the successor development goals, whatever they might be after 2030. 285 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:35,430 Things that could be done in this these coming decades. 286 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:41,940 JEREMY: Will Masters rounding out our conversation on the cost of a healthy diet. 287 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:52,800 My thanks to him, to Olutayo Adeyemi from Nigeria and Imran Chiosa from Malawi, and to Anna Herforth. 288 00:28:52,860 --> 00:29:01,290 I'll put links to the Food Prices for Nutrition team and some of the websites that make use of their data in the show notes at EatThis 289 00:29:01,290 --> 00:29:04,170 podcast.com. 290 00:29:04,170 --> 00:29:07,980 I should say I was particularly struck by one thing. 291 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:14,250 Anna said that most countries don't need to collect any extra data. 292 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:23,610 They do need to do some extra analysis, but the insights that offers can make a real difference to whether people can afford to eat a 293 00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:28,230 healthier, more nutritious diet. 294 00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:36,720 A quick reminder that there's a transcript you can download, and one that lets you read along as you listen, if your podcast app supports 295 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,340 that, both thanks to the generosity of supporters of the show. 296 00:29:41,820 --> 00:29:49,620 And if you enjoy this podcast, please tell a friend and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. 297 00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:52,140 It all helps to spread the word. 298 00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:01,110 For now though, from me, Jeremy Cherfas and Eat This Podcast, goodbye and thanks for listening.