1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:12,680 JEREMY: Hello and welcome to another episode of Eat This podcast with me, Jeremy Cherfas. 2 00:00:13,430 --> 00:00:19,070 Today, a close look at one particular aspect of Jewish dietary laws. 3 00:00:19,910 --> 00:00:27,740 Now, the thing that almost everybody knows about Jewish dietary laws is that pork is absolutely forbidden. 4 00:00:27,950 --> 00:00:32,600 But why? And by that I don't mean why are pigs forbidden? 5 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:39,440 I mean, why is there such a close association between Jews and pigs? 6 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:47,300 That's the central question of a new book from Jordan Rosenblum, a professor at the University of Wisconsin, 7 00:00:47,300 --> 00:00:54,740 Madison. The book is called Forbidden: A 3000 year History of Jews and the Pig. 8 00:00:54,770 --> 00:01:04,740 And Rosenblum's point is that if you start from the Hebrew Bible, There's nothing special in it that would make the pig stand 9 00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:05,490 out. 10 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:13,080 JORDAN: If you look at biblical texts, the same text that taboos the pig, taboos camels and rock badgers and hares. 11 00:01:13,380 --> 00:01:20,430 O utside of that text, where they're tabooed, the pig only appears five other times in the Hebrew Bible, 12 00:01:20,430 --> 00:01:25,020 but other biblically non-kosher animals that are also taboo in the same passages, 13 00:01:25,020 --> 00:01:28,470 like the eagle, appear several times more. 14 00:01:28,470 --> 00:01:36,750 So if all you had was the biblical text, you would presume that other animals are even more tabooed. 15 00:01:37,050 --> 00:01:40,290 So it doesn't stand out. And that's one of the more interesting things, 16 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:46,680 is that because if you stand 3000 years later and look backwards, it seems inevitable. 17 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:53,340 But if you start the timeline the other way, looking from the ancient world towards the future, 18 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:00,740 what unfolds is not predictable. You wouldn't have bet on it. 19 00:02:01,940 --> 00:02:05,720 JEREMY: So why does it unfold in that way? 20 00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:10,760 JORDAN: Well, a series of things. So I argue that in the Second Temple period, 21 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,820 you have a series of texts where, um, ... 22 00:02:13,820 --> 00:02:19,520 JEREMY: I think, I think we need to go back and have a quick refresher on the history of Judaism, 23 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:20,480 very quickly. 24 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,410 JORDAN: Very quickly. I'd say there's the biblical period, which is ... 25 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,440 The religion of the Bible is a sacrificial religion. 26 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,980 T he ancient Israelites would go to a temple. 27 00:02:30,980 --> 00:02:36,590 Eventually it becomes only one temple, the temple in Jerusalem, and they would offer animal sacrifices to 28 00:02:36,620 --> 00:02:41,810 God, and by a priestly class that would offer them. 29 00:02:41,810 --> 00:02:47,180 If you live far away, you could send money or animals to the temple. 30 00:02:47,540 --> 00:02:51,140 A nd then ... I'll skip over a lot of important things. 31 00:02:51,170 --> 00:02:55,940 I'll skip. I'll just say this history to get us to the things that we need for pig. There's one Temple, 32 00:02:55,970 --> 00:03:00,750 gets destroyed. It gets rebuilt. Then that becomes the Second Temple period, 33 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:07,830 which is 515 BCE to 70 CE; 515 BC is when that Second Temple is rededicated, 34 00:03:07,830 --> 00:03:13,590 70 CE is when the Romans, and that's going to be important, destroy the the Second Temple. 35 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:20,160 After 70 CE there's this void, and Judaism tries to figure out what to do. 36 00:03:20,190 --> 00:03:21,930 A re they going to rebuild the temple? 37 00:03:21,930 --> 00:03:27,600 What are they going to do? A group rises that becomes the sort of dominant expression of Judaism until today, 38 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:34,020 which is Rabbinic Judaism, that seeks to translate a temple based religion to a world that doesn't have a temple. 39 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:43,620 So it replaces daily sacrifice with daily prayer, sacrifice with study of biblical and rabbinic texts, 40 00:03:43,620 --> 00:03:49,890 and comes up with rituals to make sense of the world in which those communities then live. 41 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,870 JEREMY: Okay, back to the second Temple. 42 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:55,980 JORDAN: Zoom back to the Second Temple period. Right. So the temple sacrifice is going on. 43 00:03:56,310 --> 00:04:05,320 T here's some, some text, the book of the Maccabees, that talks about the story behind what is the modern Jewish holiday of 44 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:12,040 Hanukkah. And they talk about a time when foreign rulers are trying to express dominance over Judaism. 45 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:19,330 And there are Jews who are forced to either eat pig or be martyred, or be gruesomely killed. 46 00:04:19,330 --> 00:04:28,420 And these texts, in detail, say these Jews who choose to reject eating pig and because they view that as 47 00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:34,540 submitting to the other, to the foreign domination and, as represented, 48 00:04:34,810 --> 00:04:37,600 giving up their Jewish values and Jewish practices. 49 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:45,970 And so in these texts, pig starts to take on more weight as an important differentiator. 50 00:04:45,970 --> 00:04:54,430 And what this probably comes down to is the fact that, of the meats that are most commonly eaten, 51 00:04:54,460 --> 00:05:02,880 you think about cow, sheep, goat, pig is the most commonly eaten, clearly not kosher meat, 52 00:05:02,910 --> 00:05:05,580 right? And so it probably stood out that way. 53 00:05:05,610 --> 00:05:07,350 Right? Because I mentioned the eagle. 54 00:05:07,350 --> 00:05:09,810 But how common was it for people to eat eagle? 55 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:15,300 You know, not so common. And so it seems to take on more weight in Jewish sources. 56 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:19,380 In fact, if people know about Hanukkah, they know about the miracle of the oil. 57 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:24,600 But that story doesn't appear until like 600 to 1000 years later. 58 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:32,970 So , in the most early versions of the story behind Hanukkah, we learn more about the pig than oil. 59 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,930 And so what I argue is that these texts, that starts to stand out more. 60 00:05:36,930 --> 00:05:41,160 And then non-Jews, you see this in Roman sources, for example, they start commenting on, 61 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,230 hey, it's weird that Jews don't eat pig. 62 00:05:43,260 --> 00:05:50,490 And then as rabbinic sources come into the fore, they start commenting more on how it's important to not eat pig. 63 00:05:50,490 --> 00:05:55,800 And it starts to become more and more symbolic and talked about more and more, 64 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,270 and then it just becomes a snowball effect. 65 00:05:58,270 --> 00:06:02,740 Both Jews and non-Jews talk about it more and more and more as representing Jewish identity. 66 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:09,430 And so that's how that story explodes outward in a, in a completely unpredictable way, 67 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:11,110 if you're looking at it from antiquity. 68 00:06:11,140 --> 00:06:16,960 JEREMY: So if the Romans had been eating, eating camel, which a lot of people still do, 69 00:06:16,990 --> 00:06:19,990 it could have gone to the camel? 70 00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:23,740 JORDAN: It could have. That's a whole other ... 71 00:06:23,770 --> 00:06:27,370 You know, in some, depending on your views of physics. 72 00:06:27,370 --> 00:06:32,680 Right. In some other parallel universe , I, I'm talking about, you know, 73 00:06:32,710 --> 00:06:36,730 Forbidden: A 3000 year History of Jews and the Camel. 74 00:06:36,790 --> 00:06:46,420 JEREMY: So the martyrdom of the Second Temple period, when when Jews would rather die than eat pig 75 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,050 , the rabbis kind of changed their mind on that. 76 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,566 JORDAN: Yes. So, and it's interesting because ... 77 00:06:53,566 --> 00:07:03,440 So in the book of the Maccabees are reflecting a very Greek and Roman notion of the idea that to 78 00:07:04,370 --> 00:07:11,900 reject eating pig is to show self-control and self-mastery, which the rabbis also agree with. 79 00:07:11,900 --> 00:07:21,830 But to pretend to eat pig would be to lose face and to , to not live 80 00:07:21,860 --> 00:07:27,440 a principled life anymore. T he rabbis, based on a different interpretation. 81 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,810 They look at a biblical text that talks about the commandments and that you shall live by them. 82 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:37,490 And they very clearly say, well, live by them means live by them and not die by them. 83 00:07:37,490 --> 00:07:41,540 And so they say ... Except for three exceptions, three exceptions. 84 00:07:41,540 --> 00:07:44,690 One is murder. So unjustified homicide. 85 00:07:44,690 --> 00:07:48,530 So someone says, I will kill you unless you kill that other person. 86 00:07:48,530 --> 00:07:52,430 They say you should let yourself be killed because who are you to decide, 87 00:07:52,460 --> 00:07:55,400 right? Who are you to play God ? Whose blood is redder? 88 00:07:55,990 --> 00:07:59,710 Idolatry, because for them, that is the complete opposite of everything. 89 00:07:59,710 --> 00:08:01,570 You're supposed to be a monotheist. 90 00:08:01,570 --> 00:08:05,620 And so to commit idolatrous acts is to violate every principle. 91 00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:08,920 And forbidden sexual relations. So for example, incest. 92 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:17,680 B ut eating pig ... If someone says eat pig or die, it's better to live by it. 93 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,480 And so they don't say, you know, so they wouldn't say go order pig because you're hungry. 94 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,890 But if you're presented with the option that is presented in the Book of Maccabees, 95 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,780 they have a very different take on it. 96 00:08:28,780 --> 00:08:32,890 And that comes ... that's from a different historical perspective. 97 00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:37,720 A nd that's also one of the the stories that comes out from this book, 98 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,000 is you're also looking at the history of Judaism as it develops in different times and places, 99 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:49,600 different legal and exegetical practices develop. 100 00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:52,060 And the pig is one way of telling that story. 101 00:08:52,090 --> 00:08:59,060 JEREMY: The willingness to eat pig or secretly refraining from eating pig. 102 00:08:59,090 --> 00:09:02,600 I mean, that becomes quite big in in converting countries. 103 00:09:02,630 --> 00:09:11,750 Like I mean, you've got that in Spain and elsewhere, that people who are nominally Christian but are suspected of not 104 00:09:11,750 --> 00:09:13,370 eating pig are tested. 105 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:21,620 JORDAN: Yes. I mean, there's ... It's long been a theory that you go in Spain and you see these big pigs in the window, 106 00:09:21,980 --> 00:09:31,640 that that is a carryover of the Inquisition, where we have records of many people being accused of not eating pig 107 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,500 and so therefore being suspect that they are secretly practicing Judaism. 108 00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:40,940 So what's the way to show that is, look, I have a huge pig in the front. 109 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,230 Look. Look how Catholic I am. Right. 110 00:09:45,230 --> 00:09:49,670 And the symbolism of it, right, very clearly points to that. 111 00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:55,140 Because if someone I mean, we have texts of people saying, no, I eat plenty of other non-kosher foods. I just don't like pig, 112 00:09:55,590 --> 00:10:05,520 right? B ut that is seen as so symbolic that it becomes an easy way of letting people 113 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,860 know how Catholic you are, or attempting to conceal how Jewish you are. 114 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,340 JEREMY: But the question of no, I don't, I just don't like pig. 115 00:10:14,370 --> 00:10:24,210 I mean that that conflicts with most people, who seem to think that pork is the most delicious meat. 116 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,350 JORDAN: Yes. And there are sources going back to the ancient world. 117 00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:33,150 I t's amazing how many Jewish sources I have found that talk about how pig is the most delicious meat. 118 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:36,720 And you wonder is, do they have first hand knowledge or not? 119 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:39,480 But actually that becomes part of ... 120 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,500 So for Jewish sources, it becomes part of a way of saying, acknowledging, 121 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:49,500 right? It's not that pig isn't delicious, it's that it is. 122 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:54,050 But you're choosing to show fidelity to God by not eating it. 123 00:10:54,050 --> 00:10:56,322 And then there are other sources that ... 124 00:10:56,322 --> 00:10:59,150 Christian sources, that say it's the most delicious meat. 125 00:10:59,180 --> 00:11:01,700 What kind of a god would want you to not eat that? 126 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,790 JEREMY: Both of those seem to me to be good points. 127 00:11:04,820 --> 00:11:11,960 I mean, you know, you're sacrificing yourself, and God is demanding that sacrifice of you. 128 00:11:12,140 --> 00:11:19,040 S o I guess it makes sense. God demands sacrifice, and you make the sacrifice, 129 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:19,640 right? 130 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,060 JORDAN: And you're right that there are both points where what is your ... 131 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:26,600 What it often is, is working backwards, is, what is your final conclusion. 132 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,760 And then how can you use pig to support it. 133 00:11:29,090 --> 00:11:34,640 JEREMY: Mm. It's interesting that in the discussion of the rabbinical works, and you make, 134 00:11:34,670 --> 00:11:41,360 you make much of this, that they can't even bring themselves to use the word pig. 135 00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:45,470 That seems like kind of magical thinking of a sort. 136 00:11:45,620 --> 00:11:48,950 JORDAN: It is. But also, you know, there's ... 137 00:11:48,950 --> 00:11:53,610 People do this with all sorts of things. You know, I grew up ... 138 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,220 Many family members didn't want to mention the word cancer. 139 00:11:56,250 --> 00:12:02,340 Right. Because they just, just the fear of it, right, made them afraid to say it. 140 00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:10,200 S o it works two ways. One is it's a cultural way of expressing how concerned you are about a thing, 141 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,820 but also the more you avoid it, right? 142 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,490 I mean, this is like basic trauma therapy, right? 143 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,950 Like, you know, the idea of exposure therapy is to ... 144 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:29,190 If you're avoiding something, it's ... you're making it worse. But learning to to deal with it and grapple with it is a way of overcoming 145 00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:34,110 it. Right. So the more ... That's another argument to make is, the more they linguistically avoid it, 146 00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:36,270 the greater power they're giving it. 147 00:12:36,270 --> 00:12:38,100 So that's another way it feeds into it. 148 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:40,710 So it's one thing to say, oh, the pig is disgusting. 149 00:12:40,740 --> 00:12:45,000 It's another thing to not even be willing to say, you know, that thing is disgusting. 150 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,080 You've distanced yourself. You've made it, you're you're making an even bigger deal out of it. 151 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:57,820 And then as each subsequent generation hears that it's farther and farther away from something that they're willing to connect to, 152 00:12:57,850 --> 00:12:59,590 right? That's pushing it more. 153 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:09,100 JEREMY: Did any group of Jews take to the pig in late medieval times? 154 00:13:09,130 --> 00:13:14,230 JORDAN: Well, throughout history, one of my first points that I really try to make throughout this book, 155 00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:17,440 that I feel I need to constantly remind people of, is: we should never, 156 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:24,970 from biblical times to today, presume that all people who identified as Jews did not eat the pig. 157 00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:30,100 Some did not. Some did. Some occasionally did. 158 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:37,900 Some didn't ask questions. Right. So the first thing I'm always trying to undermine is this idea that that everyone throughout all time and 159 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:45,910 space didn't. Right then, there are pockets of times where people talk more about actually doing that, 160 00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:52,800 but I talk about the followers of Sabbatai Zevi, this Messianic figure, 161 00:13:53,010 --> 00:14:01,320 in modernity, who had a series of practices where actually they were trying to invert rituals. 162 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:07,050 And so they, they would eat pig on the Sabbath as part of their rituals, 163 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:13,410 right, to purposely violate Judaism in a Jewish way. 164 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:23,310 I talk about in the 20s and 30s, 1920s and 30s, Jewish communists in Russia trying to show ... 165 00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:27,660 Like if religion is the opiate of the masses, you want to show that you've thrown off your religion and you're 166 00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:33,990 Jewish. So what better way to do that than to engage in collective farming like a good communist of pigs? 167 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:39,630 But the ironic thing, right, is to show how not Jewish you are, you've chosen something that continuously reminds everyone that you're 168 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:45,870 Jewish. It only works, it only is a rejection, if everyone knows that you're Jewish and choosing to do that. 169 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,600 JEREMY: So. So there were Jews farming pigs in the Soviet Union? 170 00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:53,560 JORDAN: Yes. 171 00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:55,930 JEREMY: Tell me more about that. 172 00:14:55,930 --> 00:15:00,457 JORDAN: So again, it's the idea of how do you show ... 173 00:15:00,457 --> 00:15:06,010 because Jews in particular were suspect in communism at that time. 174 00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:10,690 And so they wanted to prove how good communists they were. 175 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:18,730 And so again, the point was, if you raise pigs, you've thrown off your Judaism and embraced communism as the true 176 00:15:18,730 --> 00:15:23,662 cause. But in doing so, it only, it only proves that you've thrown off ... 177 00:15:23,662 --> 00:15:28,930 If it was someone who was a Christian or had no religion, right, and raised pigs, 178 00:15:28,930 --> 00:15:32,590 it's not worthy of comment. That's, you know, dog bites man. 179 00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:36,040 Right. But man bites dog is a Jew raising pigs. 180 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,129 So the only way that that whole thing works is if ... 181 00:15:40,129 --> 00:15:43,450 It's like, if I say to you, don't think of an elephant and you have to go think, 182 00:15:43,660 --> 00:15:47,590 okay, I'm going to think hockey stick and your brain will say, is a hockey stick an elephant? 183 00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:51,538 No. Right. So but every time to make sure you're not thinking of an elephant, 184 00:15:51,538 --> 00:15:54,400 you have to think of an elephant. It's the same thing there . 185 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,480 To make sure that they know that you're not Jews, pigs only work because everyone remembers. 186 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,100 Oh, that's a Jew who's rejecting Judaism by raising pigs. 187 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,530 JEREMY: So he's not a Jew any more? 188 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:13,850 JORDAN: But yet he is. Because you ... Because every time that it's referenced to show what a good communist is, 189 00:16:13,850 --> 00:16:15,650 you have to remember that he's a Jew. 190 00:16:16,010 --> 00:16:22,460 JEREMY: But it doesn't stop him being the victim of Stalinist pogroms. 191 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:29,900 JORDAN: No it doesn't. I mean, it's a complex and bitter irony there, but for the, 192 00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:34,610 for the purposes of my argument, that complex and bitter irony proves my point, 193 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:41,540 right? Which is, using pig to reject Jewish identity, it is pointing back to Jewish identity. 194 00:16:41,810 --> 00:16:43,820 JEREMY: It doesn't actually get you off the hook. 195 00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:48,890 JORDAN: Right. And the another one of the points that I try and hammer home towards the end, 196 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,060 right, is that people ... There's this tradition to, like, look down on Jews eating pigs. 197 00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:58,500 And I'm indifferent to it. I'm not advocating for Jews to eat pig or to not eat pig, 198 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:06,330 but what I am advocating is for people to see that , constantly, we see Jews who've chosen to not eat pig and view that as 199 00:17:06,330 --> 00:17:13,290 a Jewish identity statement. And Jews who have chosen to eat pig, and that ends up being, 200 00:17:13,290 --> 00:17:16,560 in many complex ways, also a Jewish identity statement. 201 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:22,710 And so to exalt or denigrate one or the other is to miss the full picture. 202 00:17:23,190 --> 00:17:29,640 JEREMY: T here is a whole strand of of religious Judaism that says, yeah, it's okay, 203 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,040 it's fine. How did that come about? 204 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:36,270 JORDAN: So in the, particularly in the 1800s, you had a ... 205 00:17:37,170 --> 00:17:44,400 It starts in Germany, of Jews who are looking at times of the rise of the modern nation state, 206 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,670 and they're looking at questions of emancipation, of can a Jew be a citizen? 207 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:50,700 Can you be a German and a Jew, Or are you always a Jew? 208 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,145 And is your allegiance to a separate nation . 209 00:17:53,145 --> 00:17:57,930 And Reform Jews said, you're first a German. 210 00:17:57,930 --> 00:18:00,240 You can speak good German, not Yiddish. 211 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:07,470 You can engage in German society and you can go to temple and you can be a Jew, 212 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:10,770 just like you can be a Lutheran or a Catholic and be German. 213 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:20,040 And so what these, these Reform Jews started to say is, well, let's change the way Jewish practice is, 214 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:26,190 to make it more conform with modernity as they understood it, and to fit in with that. 215 00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:32,460 And one part of that was many of them rejected Jewish dietary laws, and they said, 216 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:36,780 it's not rational. A nd that this is the rise of the claim ... 217 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:41,430 For example, this is when trichinosis is discovered, and there's this claim, which is not historically true, 218 00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:45,660 that, oh, Jews didn't eat pig because of trichinosis. 219 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,330 My point is always that you then have to assume the rest of the world was stupid, 220 00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:55,030 right? And also, as an anthropologist , Marvin Harris, has long pointed out, 221 00:18:55,210 --> 00:18:58,840 then the rule should be thou shalt not eat pork unless it's cooked through. 222 00:18:58,870 --> 00:19:03,220 Right. Because it's just, it's easy. Cook the, cook the meat more. Right. S o. 223 00:19:03,250 --> 00:19:08,860 But they said no. So that's the rational, that's the rational explanation for this. 224 00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:11,020 And now that you understand it, you can eat pig. 225 00:19:11,050 --> 00:19:14,350 But still many Reform Jews were uncomfortable with that. 226 00:19:14,350 --> 00:19:18,730 And so in America, for example, for a while there was, there were Jews who would eat oysters, 227 00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:21,970 which are also biblically forbidden, because if you're a sea creature, 228 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:27,490 you have to have fins and scales. Oysters don't have fins and scales, therefore they're not biblically allowed. But oysters were widely 229 00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:29,680 available in America, or they were very popular. 230 00:19:30,010 --> 00:19:36,400 A nd they said, oh, well ... There's one reform rabbi who even referred to oysters as ocean vegetables. 231 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:38,710 Just a vegetable. I love that quote. It's fun. 232 00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:45,280 But they didn't eat pig because there was such cultural baggage. And then eventually in the later 1800s, 233 00:19:45,550 --> 00:19:47,680 American Reform Judaism said, you know what? 234 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,020 Even pig, we're going to eat, right? 235 00:19:50,050 --> 00:19:53,830 N ow that, if you study Reform Judaism moves on, has gotten more complicated. 236 00:19:53,860 --> 00:19:56,080 Some Reform Jews continue that policy. 237 00:19:56,110 --> 00:20:03,640 Some do not. But again, they're engaging with to what extent they're understanding Judaism, 238 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,350 interacting with what they understand to be the modern world and modern values, 239 00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:15,100 and trying to, to, to fit in multiple allegiances in their minds. 240 00:20:15,490 --> 00:20:21,220 JEREMY: There's another kind of strange paradox among American Jews and and pigs. 241 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:26,590 I mean, Chinese food is replete with pork, and Chinese love pork. 242 00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:32,020 They eat lots of pork. And many Jews like Chinese food. 243 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:39,160 And they don't see any ... Even even kosher Jews eat Chinese food. 244 00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:44,350 So, what's behind the Jewish embrace of Chinese food? 245 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:47,550 JORDAN: So you can still see it today. If you go to the Lower East Side. 246 00:20:47,550 --> 00:20:54,090 You go to Chinatown in New York City, and you look around and you'll see shops with the Chinese characters 247 00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:57,600 on the window. And then if you look, you'll find some older shops that have Yiddish characters on the 248 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,820 windows. So first is just, if you look at immigration patterns, particularly in New York, 249 00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:06,840 Jewish and Chinese communities butted up against each other. 250 00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:14,257 Right. I'm relying on several other scholars who've worked on this, who pointed out that, 251 00:21:14,257 --> 00:21:17,220 that there are several factors at play. 252 00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:22,530 One is the historical fact of just literally being next to each other. Right? Like, you're not going to learn about a food if you don't 253 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,710 interact with that food. Then if you look at other communities that near, 254 00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:29,730 there were Irish, Italian, etc. and if you think, there's ... 255 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:32,310 there's cultural baggage attached to that. 256 00:21:32,370 --> 00:21:35,850 So they'll see Christian, Christian iconography, they'll see a crucifix, 257 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:38,910 for example. Right. And they have a long history of that. 258 00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:45,690 But if they see a statue of the Buddha, right, there's not necessarily the same baggage associated with that, 259 00:21:45,690 --> 00:21:48,980 even though, there's religious symbolism and such. 260 00:21:49,010 --> 00:21:56,150 Your average Jew on the street at that moment could choose to not ask questions about Buddha, 261 00:21:56,660 --> 00:22:00,860 but certainly knew what the crucifix represented. 262 00:22:00,890 --> 00:22:07,760 T hen you have the fact that today people think of Chinese food as, not necessarily as cosmopolitan. 263 00:22:07,790 --> 00:22:14,120 Right. And because they know the difference between, you know, moo shu and lo mein and, 264 00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:22,880 you know, chow mein, but 100 years ago or more that that difference wasn't so well known. 265 00:22:22,910 --> 00:22:27,770 Right. And so someone could go into a Chinese restaurant and just point at something and order it. 266 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,780 And if you, if you take a moment to look at most Chinese food, you're going to notice a few things. 267 00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:37,640 Number one, according to rabbinic law, you cannot mix milk and meat. 268 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:40,670 There's no milk in most Chinese food. 269 00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:43,910 You're not going to. ... So even if you're, even if you don't keep kosher, 270 00:22:43,910 --> 00:22:46,610 but you grew up with that, you're not used to it. 271 00:22:46,610 --> 00:22:50,120 So number one, someone goes in is not going to have to worry about milk and meat. Then, 272 00:22:50,150 --> 00:22:54,110 most meat is shredded or chopped or minced in some way. 273 00:22:54,110 --> 00:22:59,150 And if you don't ask questions, right, if you say, I'll have some of that moo shu, 274 00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:02,960 don't tell me what meat's in it. I don't want to know if it's moo shu chicken, moo shu pork, 275 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:05,690 right, moo shu tofu. Just give it to me. 276 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:11,270 Right ? Then you can choose to be ignorant of what it is, right? 277 00:23:11,780 --> 00:23:14,720 It's different than ordering a pork chop where you know what it is. 278 00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:19,820 And then, frankly, the thing that I think really is important to remember too, 279 00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:24,560 is it kind of once someone starts to do it, it kind of becomes a tradition, 280 00:23:24,590 --> 00:23:28,850 right? And so if parents start to do it and they bring their kids, the kids just associate it with ... 281 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,660 It's a thing to do. And actually, if you look at the history of Chinese food in America, 282 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:40,880 as Jews start to move out of cities into suburbs, Chinese restaurants will often follow those patterns, 283 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,670 because there are ... If you, if they were looking to venture out into new territory, 284 00:23:45,670 --> 00:23:50,440 if there were Jews who would move from the city, you're going to have a clientele to start off with who are familiar 285 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:56,440 with food, right. And that, and so, if you look at the -- and there are many scholars who have done that, 286 00:23:56,470 --> 00:24:01,180 who look at the rise of Chinese food in America -- that's part of that story, 287 00:24:01,180 --> 00:24:08,290 too. And you can't actually tell the history of Chinese food in America without talking about this Jewish connection. 288 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:16,900 JEREMY: The other thing that's kind of vaguely familiar to me is this idea that Jewish soldiers, 289 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:25,210 Jewish GIs, if they didn't want to eat pork, would go hungry during during the war, 290 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:34,810 the Second World War. W as that was that something that they embraced or was it always a problem? 291 00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:38,410 JORDAN: A gain, there's not a consistent picture. 292 00:24:38,410 --> 00:24:46,070 For some, they said, you know what, I'm fighting war, I'm, you know, fighting Nazis. 293 00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:51,320 I need to eat food so I can survive, and remember there's long rabbinic precedent for it. 294 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,090 There's also, in modernity, lots of rabbinic precedent for, if you're in an army, 295 00:24:56,630 --> 00:25:02,660 violating kosher laws while you're in the army, because in theory, your life is in danger at any moment. 296 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,950 So some just embraced it. S ome ate pork before and so just continued to. 297 00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:12,350 S ome avoided as much as possible. And yeah, some, didn't. 298 00:25:12,350 --> 00:25:21,680 And, and they would go hungry and, and because for them, eating pig represented such a 299 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:31,100 violation that even though there were allowances and even those interpretations that we're choosing to exclude the most 300 00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:40,910 possible, they , they ... Even though there are allowances, they chose not to because for them it represented so much more. 301 00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:46,440 JEREMY: Have the rabbis ... I mean, it's interesting that the rabbis can decide, 302 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,640 for example, that oysters are an ocean vegetable. 303 00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,100 Have they kept up with modern trends and ... 304 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,810 What are they, what do they say about Impossible Meat? 305 00:25:58,050 --> 00:26:03,300 JORDAN: Oh, yeah. So Impossible. I'll start to say, by the way, the ocean vegetables of oysters was a very small minority 306 00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:05,580 opinion. It's one that I love because it's so funny. 307 00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:08,790 But there were ... But that should not be viewed as the normative opinion. 308 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:11,340 JEREMY: Point taken . 309 00:26:11,370 --> 00:26:18,450 JORDAN: But Impossible ... So the question is Impossible Pork, right? So now we have ways of making completely vegetarian and vegan 310 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:26,580 fake meat products. And if you look at rabbinic sources going back to the Talmud and before, 311 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:31,590 there are clear understandings that , that if ... 312 00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:35,460 pork is forbidden, but something that tastes or looks like pork but isn't pork, 313 00:26:35,490 --> 00:26:38,940 it's totally fine. A nd then you start to have ... 314 00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:44,240 And there's over a hundred year history in America of, like, fake pork products. 315 00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:50,750 -- Beef fry. Bacos, et cetera -- that ended up being certified as kosher. 316 00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:57,080 And along comes Impossible Meats, and they were certified as kosher. 317 00:26:57,110 --> 00:27:01,280 Their Impossible Sausage, Impossible Beef, Impossible Hot Dogs ... 318 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,390 You're going to have a whole list. And then they came out with the Impossible Pork, 319 00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:11,600 and it seemed just to go too far. But the machinery it's made on, the ingredients, 320 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:17,390 et cetera. are all the same that continue to be certified kosher with other Impossible products. 321 00:27:17,390 --> 00:27:25,940 But just the fact that it was pork, that it was called pork, was the reason that the kosher certifying 322 00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:29,720 agency involved in it, the OU, which is the world's largest kosher certifier, 323 00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:37,790 because it's, it was deemed so pork like, they just won't do it even though every technical reason it's kosher, 324 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:44,250 but they won't give their certification because of this baggage, right? 325 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,820 So there's more to the story there. And I mean, when this first came out, 326 00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:52,200 when the story first hit the news, I was like, oh, I don't want to talk about this. But then the more I 327 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,490 read about it, the more I'm like, I have to talk about it because it proves my point, which is, 328 00:27:57,420 --> 00:28:01,020 there's no legal reason to deny it. 329 00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:07,020 It really is that cultural power of it which exerts such a force that they said, 330 00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:12,000 even if it's legally allowed, just the thought of it just seems so anathema that we can't do it. 331 00:28:13,020 --> 00:28:21,180 JEREMY: Jordan Rosenblum. And of course, I did have one more question: Tell me your favorite Jewish pork joke. 332 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,590 JORDAN: I mean, I probably have to go with the standard. 333 00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:33,450 A rabbi has always wanted to eat pig , and so what he does is he goes three towns over, 334 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,500 puts on a disguise, and he orders the full -on pig. 335 00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:41,340 And he's waiting. He's waiting. And just before they bring it out of the, 336 00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:45,760 the kitchen, some congregants walk in and they ... 337 00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:51,910 And even through his disguise, they recognize him. They walk over and say hello, Rabbi. And just as they say that, 338 00:28:51,910 --> 00:28:58,510 out from the kitchen comes a waiter with a silver platter with a full hog with an apple in its mouth. 339 00:28:59,380 --> 00:29:01,720 And they put it down on the table, and they walk away. 340 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,140 And the congregants, their mouths hit the floor, and they say, Rabbi, 341 00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:08,830 you ordered the pig? And he collects himself. 342 00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:11,140 And he says, I cannot believe this restaurant. 343 00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:14,170 I ordered an apple, and this is how they serve it to me. 344 00:29:15,940 --> 00:29:21,580 JEREMY: That's actually very good. Thank you. 345 00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:28,540 Jordan Rosenbloom. I'll put a link in the show notes to his book Forbidden, 346 00:29:28,540 --> 00:29:35,260 which is a fascinating read that covers much more than we could in our conversation. 347 00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:39,610 Not all pleasant going, but very interesting indeed. 348 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:48,210 And that'll be at Eat This Podcast.com, where you can also find a transcript of this episode and an archive of 349 00:29:48,210 --> 00:29:57,690 all previous episodes. And let me do that thing of asking, if you enjoy Eat This Podcast, 350 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,520 why not leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts? 351 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:08,910 Or even better, tell a friend. Word of mouth is the best recommendation engine. 352 00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:14,190 Also, if you haven't already signed up for the newsletter, why not do that? 353 00:30:14,190 --> 00:30:20,820 I curate a selection of things from around the internet and share them between episodes like the podcast. 354 00:30:20,850 --> 00:30:28,560 The newsletter is free, though if you can pay a little something, that'll help to keep it free for everyone. 355 00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:38,160 That'll do for now. Till the next time from me, Jeremy Cherfas and Eat This Podcast. 356 00:30:38,190 --> 00:30:40,890 Goodbye and thanks for listening.