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JEREMY:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Eat This Podcast with me, 
Jeremy Cherfas.

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A few days ago I decided to give myself a treat.

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I left the house just before seven in the morning, 
took a bus to the main train station and got on the fast train from

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Rome to Bari. I was on my way to Polignano a Mare, 
a small town a little way south of Bari,

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on the Adriatic coast of Puglia. It's a stunningly beautiful little 
town,

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perched on cliffs above a clear blue sea.

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You've probably seen it on travel sites and holiday brochures.

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But what brought me here was a new book about the food and ingredients 
that make Puglia so special.

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FLAVIA:
My name is Flavia Giordano and my book is called Puglia, 
in Italian Storia di Ingredienti Cucina Territorio,

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and in English, A Cooking Journey through a Land and its Unique 
Ingredients,

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published by Ziczic Edizioni in Polignano.

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JEREMY:
I found it interesting, in the book, 
that you spent time living in Sweden before you came back here.

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And I just wonder when you were in Sweden, 
what was the one thing about Puglia that you really missed?

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FLAVIA:
I didn't know until I came back because when I was in Sweden, 
I felt like

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from the cooking perspective, everything was possible.

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So I thought I was cooking Apulian style because, 
I mean, the

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techniques were Apulian but the fresh ingredients, 
I always source them locally.

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So I adapted the cooking technique to their local potatoes, 
to their local asparagus,

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o n Apulian recipes, which to me worked.

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But when I came back to Puglia, I realized that what I missed was the 
context,

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because, I don't know, it's the same thing.

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You can have a tiramisu in Stockholm, 
but when you have tiramisu in Roma,

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it's another thing. Or when you have tiramisu in Veneto, 
is another thing,

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is the context. You can have. I mean, 
every dish can -- almost every dish --

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you can cook it abroad. But here the context and also the ingredients 
you can find makes

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it a completely different experience.

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So I feel like I was back on my place.

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JEREMY:
And is that why you wrote the book?

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FLAVIA:
I think so, because I started to ...

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I had an idea to write a book about Italian ingredients, 
but i couldn't make it while I was in

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Sweden. But when I came back to Italy and to Puglia, 
I felt like I was in my natural habitat,

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and the energy. And also, you know, 
you go to the markets -- and I always go to the market in Polignano --

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and I meet nonnas, and also my man that sells me vegetables,

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always come up with an idea, a recipe, 
a suggestion.

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So when I talk about the context, I'm talking about this, 
the social part of food,

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the interaction that makes a market interesting to shop from, 
not only because you have better ingredients,

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but also you can talk, you can share ideas.

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And the other thing I always do while we are, 
while I'm here in Puglia,

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I always visit the producers. So I go exactly to the source of the 
ingredients.

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And so this is a completely different thing.

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JEREMY:
Puglia. For a lot of people, for a lot of tourists, 
Puglia is more, it's the heel of Italy,

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it's more the Salento. But it's much bigger than that.

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Can you describe for me the geographical region of Puglia?

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FLAVIA:
Yeah. So Puglia, as you said, is the high heel, 
il Taccho d'Italia, and it's a very long region.

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So in fact, when you are driving by car in Italy and you see for the 
first time in the province of Foggia,

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the panel says Puglia, you get excited, 
and because you feel, okay, I'm finally in Puglia.

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And then, if you have to arrive to Bari or to Lecce, 
you have to calm down because it will take a while in your travel.

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So it's narrow and long as a region and very diverse.

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And also, if you consider just the coast, 
it's more than 850 kilometers of coast,

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and as length like 400 kilometres. So very, 
very long, almost the half of the length of Italy.

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And it's divided in different provinces .

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So on the upper part we have the area of Foggia with the Promontorio 
del Gargano.

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A nd this is , I mean, to simplify, 
it's a large pianura, a large plain,

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tavoliere. And since we are talking about food, 
it is mainly known for cereals ,

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for wheat and durum wheat. Then we have this backbone is called Le 
Murge,

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that goes from the province of Barletta-Andria-Trani, 
continues in the area of Bari and goes up to

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the core. We have Bari, I mean the main town.

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And then we have Lecce. So we have ...

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And of course in the other side, because the majority of these towns 
are placed geographically on the Adriatic

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Sea, while the other province, the province of Taranto, 
is placed on the Ionian Sea.

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JEREMY:
And do the different regions have very different cuisines, 
very different culinary

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habits, or is it more constant through the whole region?

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FLAVIA:
Of course there are, there are ... It's a big difference in the 
different provinces,

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also because this is linked to biodiversity.

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Puglia is known for a tapestry of different vegetables.

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And when I say this, it's really different.

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Talking about, for example, the unripe melons in the area where we 
are,

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Polignano, Fasano, they are called barattierre and they are a specific 
one.

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They are round, while if you go down to Otranto and the Lecce 
province,

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they are called meloncella and they have another colour, 
because here the melon is more green and has a different flavour.

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So it makes sense that from different produce you can end up with 
different dishes.

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JEREMY:
So is there like a typical dish from Foggia or a typical dish from 
Lecce?

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FLAVIA:
T here is a recipe, it's very dear to my heart, 
it's the pancotto fogliano,

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which is a soup made using stale bread and vegetables.

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Normally leafy vegetables, as a wild chicory, 
cichoria sylvatica, and potatoes.

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And this is specific of the area of Foggia.

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While in Lecce they have a very nice shape of pasta, 
which is called Sagne Ncannulate,

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which are like ribbons, carnival ribbons, 
and they are normally served with

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tomato sauce, or sometimes even with chickpeas.

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And this is a pasta shape, Sagne Ncannulate, 
linked to San Joseph because Saint Joseph

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was a carpenter. And this pasta looks like a wooden ribbon you make as 
a ...

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JEREMY:
... Oh, when you're planing the wood, 
yes, to make it smooth?

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SPEAKER3:
Yeah, exactly.

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JEREMY:
Let's let's go back to the Pancotto.

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Foggia is famous for wheat. Good bread as well.

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So do you think this is part of the respect for even stale bread?

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That it must find a use.

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FLAVIA:
Yeah. We we have a big respect for stale bread.

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I mean, you know for sure the expression cucina povera.

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So cucina povera , in Puglia , is a must.

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And it's also because to the quality of the ingredients.

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I discovered that you cannot use stale bread in the US because it 
becomes mouldy before it ...

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you can make it stale bread. While for us we use stale bread for 
making pangrattato,

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like breadcrumbs, or we mix it in frittatas.

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So there's a lot of respect for this, 
and love and creativity.

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So it's really having a few ingredients, 
making great dishes.

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JEREMY:
And coming back to pasta shapes , another of the pasta shapes that's 
very much associated with Bari is the orecchiette.

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People say orecchiette is a little ear .

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T o me, i have to say, it doesn't look like an ear.

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I don't know why they're called orecchiette. They could be called 
little cups or little ... I don't know. How does a pasta get

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associated with a place so strongly that orecchiette, 
all the women in Bari,

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it seems to me, are on the street and the pasta shape they're making, 
it's almost all orecchiette.

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Well, how do you explain that?

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FLAVIA:
I mean, it's ... Orecchiette is iconic.

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A dish of Bari and Puglia. But Bari has a particular technique also in 
shaping this,

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because you can shape orecchiette just flipping the dough over your 
thumb.

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So reversing the dough. But what we do in Bari is special.

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It's like a tricky movement you do with your no thumb but the two 
index fingers

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and the blade. So we make a specific movement that you have to go to 
Bari Vecchia to see it and see the ladies.

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They do it and it's unique. And this technique is called arco basso 
because arco basso --

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or in dialect from Bari Vecchia, ??

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-- it means low arch, because this is in the area right in front of 
the castle,

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where there is a small arch, where there's a community of of women 
that lives there and make orecchiette.

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JEREMY:
But are they doing it just because their grandmothers did it, 
and their grandmothers did it?

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FLAVIA:
I mean, yes and no, because now it's something that evolved a little 
bit.

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Now it's turning more also into a bigger economy.

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So it started for, like, housewives doing pasta and selling to the 
neighbours.

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And now they are scaling up and they are also facing for the first 
time ...

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I mean, they are taking up so, more seriously, 
also as entrepreneurs because I mean now they open their knowledge and

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their technique and their food to tourists from all over the world.

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They visit Bari to see them. They need to pay attention to specific 
rules about food industry.

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And also, when you run a company, you have to pay taxes.

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So it's a scale up, it's scaling up.

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And now we are in the moment when this is shifting from a tradition 
that used to be,

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I mean, housewives repeating a tradition, 
to something that is becoming part of the economy.

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JEREMY:
T he pasta here, all of the pasta in Puglia, 
I think, is flour and water only.

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There's no enriched egg pasta like there is in the north of Italy.

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I s that cucina povera or is it ...

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Is there a reason why the pasta here does not have eggs.

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FLAVIA:
Yes, because we don't use flour.

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JEREMY:
Ah.

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FLAVIA:
Yes. Because technically, technically durum wheat makes semolina, 
which is

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another thing. Because if you see flour, 
farina, is associated to wheat,

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grano tenero, while we are using durum wheat.

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So that's why. The structure of flour made of wheat and semola, 
semolina,

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made of durum wheat is different. So you use the egg to hold together 
the dough

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because the gluten is powerful, but up to a point, 
while the structure of durum wheat flour,

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semolina flour, is different. It has more gluten and also gives the 
dough more texture.

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And if you compare the pasta, the egg pasta, 
using flour, and pasta using durum wheat and water,

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they have a completely different texture.

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One is more soft and supple, while the other one is more plastic, 
like a Play-Doh,

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like clay dough. And the way we use it is completely different, 
because the pasta,

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the egg pasta, is made ... I mean, 
you make sheets, you make lasagna.

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And then you can cut it. You make pappardelle, 
tagliatelle.

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While the durum wheat pasta is more like a sculpture, 
you can you make orecchiette,

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it's like small bowls. Cavatelli, it's like a small cavity.

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So it's more plastic and the outcome is completely different.

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JEREMY:
Basics. Absolute basic ingredients.

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One of the really interesting things in your book is that you go into 
the different kinds of olive oil,

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or the different kinds of olive varieties, 
and how they have different uses in the kitchen.

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I think people are really interested in that, 
because for most people don't even know the names of the varieties.

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So can you explain where these varieties fit into the kitchen?

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FLAVIA:
So extra virgin olive oil. For many years, 
centuries, it has been seen more as a fat

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to cook the food with, more than something to enhance a dish or 
something as an ingredient with an

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own personality. While people understand the differences between a 
Sangiovese and

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Negroamaro, they don't know, as you told, 
the difference between Parenzana and Coratina.

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They just don't pay attention, because it's just a fat.

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But if you pay attention to this and try to go a little bit behind a 
label and actually

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explore more with your senses, there's much more to ...

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It's like another universe opens up to you.

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And for example, you can understand a coratina pairs perfectly with a 
chickpea

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soup or with a bean soup, because it's a very intense fruity, 
with that bitterness that matches very well with

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this kind of hearty soup, while, for example, 
you are not going to use it on a delicate fish tartare because you are

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going to kill that fish once again.

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So if you understand that every oil, 
every extra virgin olive oil, as much as the wine has

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a specific personality, I think you can really level up your way of 
eating and cooking Italian food.

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JEREMY:
The problem is that most people, when they buy oil, 
the oil they buy,

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it may be labelled extra virgin olive oil, 
but it doesn't contain a variety name .

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It's impossible to find these things out.

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FLAVIA:
Yeah, this is something, because the labels, 
I mean the labeling, is another issue.

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It's complicated and I don't want to talk about this, 
but for example,

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there are a lot of olive guides, like there is Slow Food that every 
year issue a new guida agli oli.

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There is F los Olei, another competition that makes this excellent 
guide.

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There is Gambero Rosso. So what I first of all, 
I suggest, to start to browse a little bit

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these guides and also try to be curious about the olive oil producers,

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the artisanal ones. Talk to them, ask them which ...

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So this is a mono cultivar, which kind of, 
which variety of olive?

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Y ou used which one in this? And taste.

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So this is the only way you can get a new knowledge about the extra 
virgin olive oil.

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And it's more like personal that buying in a supermarket.

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So that's why you are going to buy something alive, 
more than a product.

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JEREMY:
It's interesting that olive oil seems to be going in the same 
direction as wine,

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just a little bit later, because it used to be that the wine in Puglia 
was part of the great Italian wine

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lake in the olden days, and most of it went somewhere else to fortify 
different wines.

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But now the wines have become well known, 
well produced.

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So how did that come about?

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FLAVIA:
So yes, you're right. In Puglia, we prefer to sell our grapes instead 
of making

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our own wines. This is linked to the end of the 19th century, 
where a

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region as the Piemonte, the Toscana, 
but also foreign markets like France,

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Austria, wanted to have grapes to make good blends, 
especially for red wines,

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to accomplish different things. First of all, 
grapes like Negroamaro,

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Primitivo and Maiello [?], they are very rich in colour.

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So if you add this to your blend, they are rich in colour.

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Then they are rich in sugar. So they, 
it means they are rich in alcohol and

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also they are grapes that can be aged.

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Not every grape can be aged, because sometimes there are wines that 
you have to drink in maximum two years and then they start

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their decline, while Apulian wines they become famous, 
not ...

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Apulian grapes, they become famous because they could make ...

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give complexity and body structure, 
colour, alcohol to these precious,

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precious wines of France. So in Puglia now there are still people, 
there are still entrepreneurs,

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companies, that sell grapes or they sell wines in bulk.

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But from the 90s we are starting to producing our quality wines and 
not only the red

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wines, but also the white. I mean, 
we have fantastic white grapes.

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So it's ... there was a shift in culture and also in the way of 
making,

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being entrepreneurs.

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JEREMY:
Presumably the people of Puglia always made their own wine for 
drinking at home.

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D o they now consider the Apulian wines worthwhile?

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FLAVIA:
There is a little bit of Questione Meridionale, 
I think, in what we do.

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So the fact that we are ... We feel like, 
a complex.

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We are not enough. We are not enough industrialised.

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We are not enough rich. We are not enough.

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But I think now, now we are more proud of what we do and what ...

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on our quality. We want to put a label.

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We want to identify what we do, because before, 
Puglia was a region with very few DOC wines.

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Even now we have just four DOCG wines.

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So it's a process that is taking time.

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But now we want to put a label also because the quality of our raw 
ingredients,

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our material is excellent. We are learning to highlight what we do and 
I think now we are

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... I mean, we have another mindset.

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We are, we value more what we do.

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JEREMY:
Flavia Giordano, author of Puglia: 
A Cooking Journey Through a Land and Its Unique Ingredients.

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As you heard, Flavia offers food, tours and culinary experiences in 
Perugia.

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Her website is SpaghettiABC.com. And of course, 
I'll put a link in the show notes at EatThisPodcast.com.

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If those tours are anything like the time I spent with her, 
which included a delicious,

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simple lunch, i'm sure they're fabulous and fun.

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My thanks to Flavia and her lovely little Italian greyhound, 
Carla, for making my flying trip to Puglia so worthwhile.

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A day definitely well spent.

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For now though, till the next time from me, 
Jeremy Cherfas and Eat This Podcast,

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goodbye and thanks for listening.